Accessibility Awareness

[Markus] (0:03 - 0:12) If you want to get customers, you need to be easy to use. And it's not only for those who are using assistive technologies. [Darren] (0:14 - 0:22) Welcome to the DevOps Sauna, the podcast where we deep dive into the world of DevOps, platform engineering, security, and more as we explore the future of development. [Pinja] (0:22 - 0:32) Join us as we dive into the heart of DevOps, one story at a time. Whether you're a seasoned practitioner or only starting your DevOps journey, we're happy to welcome you into the DevOps Sauna. [Darren] (0:38 - 0:59) Welcome back to the DevOps Sauna. It's a special day today. The 15th of May is, I believe, World Accessibility Awareness Day. I'm not sure if that's the correct title, but we decided to talk about it. And to do that, we've invited some specialists from the UX and accessibility team. So, Markus Tihumäki, welcome to the podcast. [Markus] (0:59 - 1:00) Thank you. [Darren] (1:00 - 1:02) Thank you. Nice to be here. And Toni Laakso. [Toni] (1:02 - 1:03) It's good to be here. [Darren] (1:04 - 1:06) And of course, I'm joined as ever by Pinja Kujala. [Pinja] (1:06 - 1:10) Hey there. And Markus and Toni, welcome, very warmly welcome here to the podcast. [Markus] (1:11 - 1:11) Thanks again. [Darren] (1:12 - 1:26) Okay. So when we're talking about accessibility, which I don't think we talk about enough, there's some large stuff happening right now. The next six months of accessibility are going to look quite interesting. Can you tell us what's going on? [Toni] (1:27 - 1:57) Yeah. There's a sort of a huge change coming in a sense that legislation concerning accessibility is about to change. The actual legislation has already changed, but it will actually come into effect at the end of June, which will expand the field of actors who need to apply to a substantially larger audience. And that will include the private sector for everything that looks like it is a web store that needs to be accessible from 28th June onwards. [Darren] (1:58 - 2:07) So here we're talking about the EU Accessibility Act. From what I understand, the public sector has already been required to be compliant. Is that correct? [Toni] (2:07 - 2:11) Yeah. They have been under the legislation for a couple of years already. [Pinja] (2:11 - 2:41) So we're talking about governmental institutions, banking, insurance companies, right? So, as you're saying, private sector and web stores are now coming into the scope of the Accessibility Act in June. So this is actually a very good question, because here in Finland, we have monopolized our alcohol store. We have a thing called Alko. Swedish people have their Systembolaget. So what about Alko.fi? Do we count that as a public sector or private sector actor here? [Toni] (2:42 - 2:58) I mean, Alko, Alko, even though it has a monopoly and is in practice owned by the government or the country, it's still considered private sector. It is a limited company, and they will come. They need to be compliant in June. [Darren] (2:59 - 3:08) So just for the reference, this episode is being recorded on Friday morning, and we're already talking about alcohol. So I like the direction we're going at this point. [Markus] (3:08 - 3:52) Of course, you can still buy also non-alcohol products there. And actually, one thing that I would like to add is also that it's the private sector and the new European Accessibility Act. It's, of course, not only for web stores in the private sector. There's a lot of things, for example, access to audiovisuals and audiovisual media, also some like ATMs and ticketing and check-in machines, TV and other broadcasts and machines, computers, smartphones. It's a lot of things to do. But the web store is one big area and very interesting, and it's included in. So web stores are now the hot thing, if I can say. [Toni] (3:52 - 4:05) Yeah, that's the hot potato at the moment. And just to be clear, this won't mean that every website needs to be compliant in a private sector. It means that if you don't sell any products or services online, it doesn't concern you. [Darren] (4:06 - 4:32) What's interesting to me here is that it seems to cover the interaction layer, regardless of where that's happening. So if we're talking about ATMs, we're talking about ticketing machines. I think there might be a tendency to get caught up in the website a bit, but it seems to actually be to enforce easier interaction, not just through the web, which is kind of interesting. When I've heard about it, it's mostly seen as a web-based thing, but perhaps I'm following the wrong news. [Markus] (4:33 - 4:51) Yeah, it's a huge area, if I can say. And of course, we can speak about the physical environment, accessibility, etc. But now we are speaking about digital accessibility and more in the websites and mobile apps. So just something to add and get remembering for those. [Toni] (4:51 - 5:21) It's true that even when we're talking about the digital experience now, mobile apps, for instance, need to be compliant as well, of course. And still, mostly the focus seems to be on the website side of things. And that can have something to do with the requirements. They are a little hard to interpret sometimes. And in the end, we sort of refer to web content accessibility guidelines, and the title alone tells you that the web is emphasized there. [Pinja] (5:22 - 5:52) When we're thinking about it now, the public sector has already been in the scope of this, and now we're adding in the private sector as well. So have you, as people who look at accessibility more than perhaps others, and Darren, you mentioned that we do not talk about accessibility quite a lot. And Darren and myself, we're not accessibility experts, none whatsoever. So have you seen any difference now between the implementation, perhaps willingness or activity between these two sectors? Is there any difference in proactivity, for example? [Toni] (5:53 - 6:09) Well, for my part, I feel that when the sort of previous round of legislation came into effect for the public sector, we were playing catch-up for a huge part. But now that the private sector has been quite proactive, trying to work to be compliant on day one. [Markus] (6:10 - 8:09) And actually, what I see the difference between the public and private sector at this moment, in my experience, is that in the public sector, they did and have done more like the accessibility with legislation and the WCAG criterion. And WCAG is like W-C-A-G, so Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. And the public sector has done that data sites and apps, et cetera, are following this criterion. But in the private sector, what I have seen at this moment and this last year, if I can say, is that they want to do more than only the legislation and only the WCAG criterion. So in the private sector, they really want to be available for every customer. And when we are speaking also about usability and useful pages and like web stores, they really want to be easy to use, fast to get info, easy to, if I can say, buy things, and et cetera. So they also, of course, follow the WCAG criterion and want to be, if I can say, good in that way, but also more. So not only the WCAG things, but also, for example, best services with different people. And is it easy, or would it be easier? So actually, for my part and my opinion, it seems that I'm very good that the private sector is taking, if I can say, high priority for this accessibility. And it's not only accessibility, it's also the usability, what we are speaking and what companies are speaking. So accessibility is inside usability. And I think that's very good. It seems to be a good thing. [Darren] (8:09 - 8:46) I do have to ask, though, how did you get people to do that? Because I work in security, and it's the exact opposite. People want to comply with NIST 2.0 and ISO. They come with a standard in mind, and I have to try and work them around to the idea of if you do things right, you will be compliant, not sticking rigidly to the compliance. So it's really refreshing to hear that in at least one case, the private sectors are sticking, not just sticking rigidly to the rules, but trying to do the correct thing. That's actually really cool to hear and frustratingly rare in my opinion. [Toni] (8:46 - 9:19) Well, I think I have one word that will answer that question. And that's the bottom line, because selling stuff to customers, the user experience is essential. You need to make it as easy and pleasant as possible to purchase things or services on your site. And it's a good point that Markus made, that when you think about accessibility, you can be compliant, you can fulfill the requirements of the law, but there's ways to go beyond that if you want to improve the customer experience. [Pinja] (9:20 - 9:37) And you're saying the customer experience is really crucial here and it can be a competitive edge as well. Enjoyable experience, make it usable for everybody. And maybe that's something that many, I hope that even more of the actors are actually understanding as an edge to go forward with. [Toni] (9:37 - 10:01) Yeah, I think so too, because if you think about it, the public sector typically provides a service that you have to use. But if you're a customer and you want to purchase some particular things, you typically have more than one alternative where you can go. And then providing as smooth an experience as possible will be for your benefit. [Markus] (10:02 - 11:33) And actually, can I add one example? Because I'm blind myself and when I'm trying to make and visit inside the web stores and I write something to Google, for example, let's say some phone, iPhone, I write that to Google and we'll check how the search results are here. I opened the first link and went to this web store. And if it seems quickly to be hard to use or not even accessible, it's easy to skip that page and come back to Google and go to the next store. And that's how, for example, I'm doing and working in web stores. So I always, if needed, it's easy to change the web store. And this is one thing in the private sector that if you want to get the customers, you need to be easy to use. And it's not only for those who are using assistive technology, et cetera, but also for everyone. And I think, Toni, that even you and you are, if I can say you have normal vision and you don't need assistive technology, et cetera, but still you are working and surfing on internet with the same idea that if the web store is hard to use, you can skip it and come back to and get the next one. So this is what customers are really doing in a digital area. So yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. [Darren] (11:34 - 11:48) Um, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's so easy to skip to the next one. And this is actually something we want to lean into. There's this kind of myth, I think, and Pinja and I have actually just spent several episodes dispelling random myths we find on the internet. So this leads into it quite nicely. [Pinja] (11:48 - 12:22) Yeah. Let's add this to that category. So when you mentioned Markus here that it is for everyone, and I, I do agree, but it may be for us to craft an idea. So what are we talking about? What are some examples that we, we have that will increase accessibility of not only websites perhaps, but let's say we have those ATMs, but we can talk about, for example, like the websites, for example, is it, is it something that is a permanent change in, in the website or is it a temporary something change that we see? Is it, for example, something in the text or a background that comes up? [Markus] (12:23 - 13:35) Yeah. Can, can the question, for example, be more like how and, and who actually have benefits from accessibility? So it's only for people with disabilities, et cetera. But for everyone, for example, if you have a broken limb, you need different things in websites and, and it's easier to use if, if it's accessible. When you are, for example, in public transport, the bus may be shaking. And, and if you have sunlight and the contrast is bad on the sides, you can't see it. And, and you may be skipping something and thinking that maybe I'm getting and, and watching this better at home. And when you are at home, you never do that again. And, and also actually transcriptions in the videos, if you are in some waiting room, maybe, or and you don't have headphones, et cetera. So it's easy to check videos with that for everyone and, and many, a lot, a lot of different things, how the accessibility is very useful and make for everyone easier to use sites. These are just some examples, but I think Toni, do you have something to, for your opinion? [Toni] (13:36 - 14:13) Yeah. Well, I mean, if you think, I mean, yeah, if you think about, well, a lot of times when we talk about accessibility, we, we sort of think it's black and white, you're totally blind, or you can see clear, you know, your vision is perfect, but in truth, everyone's sort of on a, everyone's on a scale. And, if we think about assistive technologies that we associate with, like screen readers, it's not, you know, it's not just fully blind users that use a screen reader. You might use a screen reader if you are visually impaired, or maybe if you're dyslexic, it's easier to have the content read to you aloud, instead of trying to read it yourself. [Markus] (14:14 - 14:36) And actually quickly add to this point, for example, my friend who needs to read for summer tent in university. And, she said that it's much easier to get that info and understand when you can listen to it. And, even nowadays, we are listening to voice books, eBooks, et cetera. So everyone can use it. Yeah. [Darren] (14:36 - 15:13) I think it's been established that information retention is higher when you're listening to content rather than reading it. Like it's not even anything about dyslexia or any kind of learning difficulty. It's simply how our brains seem to work that the audio retention of data. I know for me, if I'm going through any kind of technical documentation, having it read out loud is so much easier for me to pass than just reading the document. But maybe if I had it in a nice book form, that would be easier. But you know, I find the screen reader helpful in that situation. Yeah. The only smart part. Yeah. [Toni] (15:14 - 16:15) And it's interesting, also the Markus points out that, that anyone can have a disability. Most of us will at some point have a disability. It doesn't have to need to be a permanent disability, but it could be a temporary one. You might, yeah. Might have broken a limb and you have to make do with, with all the other ways of using your, whatever devices it is that we need to use, because nowadays we all need to use some device to go about our lives. Or it could be, you know, based on a situation alone. If you're out in the bright sunlight and you need to be able to buy a ticket to the bus or whatever, you know, if the design of that app that you use, if the contrasts are high enough, it's going to be a lot easier to make that purchase than if the colors have been selected solely based on a sort of an aesthetic. And I'm not saying, you know, that these two are at odds with one another. You can make aesthetically pleasing interfaces that are also accessible, but yeah. [Pinja] (16:15 - 16:18) So we don't actually have to make that compromise. [Toni] (16:18 - 16:19) I don't think so. [Pinja] (16:19 - 17:09) Between accessibility and aesthetics, for example. And I think this is a very interesting thing to understand as well. These are things that, for example, as myself, I might take for granted as a non-accessibility expert or somebody who might not even consider that this is an accessibility feature that I have screen captioned, for example, in a video. If we think about the accessibility app that is now scopically expanding and is coming into effect in June, what are the consequences of non-compliance here? Because we're talking about not just people with clear disabilities, perhaps, but everybody who's benefiting from the accessibility features. But have we seen, and what does the app say itself, and have we seen any consequences laid out in, for example, in Finland on non-compliance? [Toni] (17:09 - 18:22) Well, I mean, all the member states have the responsibility, first of all, to implement the legislation, but also to monitor that it's being followed. We have a named actor that does that. They have the power to make demands for web services to fix the defaults that they have in their services. There's several ways they can request that certain changes are made, and if the actor that is at fault doesn't follow, they can use fines as well as a sort of a motivator. That's something that hasn't been done in Finland so far. The monitoring agency has issued certain demands and requirements for certain organizations to fix these things, but apparently, they have been so good to follow these requests that there hasn't been any need for any sort of punishment in this regard. I know in Sweden, there have been cases where certain organizations have actually had to pay fines, but that hasn't happened in Finland. [Darren] (18:22 - 18:36) Do you think the lack of fines are due to an extreme compliance or extreme flexibility on the side of this administrative board? That's an interesting question. That's also a bit of thin ice. [Toni] (18:38 - 19:21) I don't know exactly. I have my own understanding of it, and that's based on Kiska, because it's a bit unclear at times how this monitoring is actually done, and what is the communication with the services at fault, and so on. But part of me says that there might be some room for more demands, more action, but then again, I know there is evidence that this monitoring is going on, and that these certain requests have been made, and they have been followed. But that's the side of things that I think you'd have to be inside that organization to actually know what goes on in there. [Darren] (19:21 - 19:36) Well, at the risk of getting you to say more, let's perhaps duck that topic. And I haven't said anything on this podcast to bother our marketing department in a while, so let's change that. Let's talk about Eficode's website. [Pinja] (19:36 - 19:54) Yeah, since we're talking about accessibility, it is not a website. It is not a webshop that we're talking about here. It is a website, but we're not required to be compliant. But have you, Toni and Markus, have you looked at the Eficode website, and from an accessibility point of view, what does it look like to you? [Markus] (19:55 - 21:15) Markus, do you want to take the lead on this? Okay. Yeah, so of course, I'm working in Eficode, and this public, if I can say public, pages for Eficode is more for, if I can say, our customers, maybe, and companies who need help from us, and et cetera. And of course, if you are, for example, trying to find a job, et cetera. So, but yeah, in Eficode's website, those are not under the legislation and under this, because it's not a web store, et cetera, as you said. But for example, our pages, yeah, we have their alternative texts, for example, in image pictures, et cetera. So that's good. But one thing there is a little bit that reading order is funny. For example, when I just tested that page, the text, which should be below the headings, it's actually before the headings. So first I read some texts and then I found the headings. So the reading order is a little bit weird, if I can say. But yeah, I think, believe, and I know that if I'm just, I will send a message to our marketing, they will fix that. So, but yeah, that's some funny parts. But do you have, Toni, any ideas? [Toni] (21:15 - 23:18) Well, yeah, I've looked into the technical sort of workings of the site, and I've used the Eficode website as an example in the internal training. Because there's a lot of things happening there that aren't, you know, aren't actually, you know, maybe use the best practices when it comes to accessibility. There, well, reading order is one thing, yes. And a part of that is the heading structure. So you, you know, on a website, you would typically want to have, just use heading levels in an organized way, which means that you, you know, you have, you have the one, H1, the top level having heading, and then you follow that with the second level. And then if you need to, you go to a third one, and so on. But if you look at the front page of Eficode.com, we start with the one, but then we would jump right away to heading level five. After one, after that comes three. And then, then comes the two. Not any hierarchy there, yeah. Yeah. So the hierarchy is, is so totally topsy-turvy and to sort of make the, well, for, for instance, we have as the top level heading, we have a better made possible with, with one word that that keeps changing. I don't know how confusing that must be. So that the H1 sort of changes all the time and, and there's no way to sort of stop that. And then, you know, I could go on with, with sort of details, like, like we have these button elements there that have been made, that have been stripped off their, of the meaning. So they aren't buttons anywhere. It's because we use a certain ARIA role presentation. So it makes, makes them practically do, but this, this may be, you know, getting, getting to detail, but there's, you know, it's sort of a good example of accessibility issues because there's a lot of them, but, but of course, as we've established, we are not required to be accessible. But I can't sort of not wonder if we were, you know, if it would be, you know, easier for everyone, if it would be, you know, have a certain benefit for the, for the business. [Markus] (23:18 - 23:54) But I want to add that even if it's not required to be accessible on our sites, still, I can see that we have tried to be accessible. So we have their texts, we have headings, we have a link text. We don't have not labeled links, et cetera. So, and, and we even have alternative texts in a picture. So there's like very many things that we have already, or I can't say we got, because I'm not in a marketing team, but, but they have also taught that accessibility way. So that's good to say in pages, not, not so bad. [Darren] (23:54 - 24:02) Yeah. That's good. And if marketing get back to you about this, just tell them I forced you to discuss these things on it. Just call. They'll blame me. It's fine. [Markus] (24:02 - 24:02) Yeah. [Darren] (24:03 - 24:11) Now we have a couple of minutes left. Let's talk about something positive. Can you give us a shining example of someone who's doing accessibility really well? [Markus] (24:11 - 25:50) Actually, I would like to add, we had a Grand One first time. The accessibility was a part, a Grand One competition. And there was the most accessible digital service competition. And there were a lot, good finalists, for example, both all pay mobile. So OP Financial Group, their mobile app and also Nordia mobile app. But then also there was once, if I can say smaller web store, Näköpiste PolarPrint, there was that Maailman saavutettavin palvelukartta [world’s most accessable service map], so service map of Helsinki city. And, also Metsään.fi, which is sites from Metsäkeskus. And actually this Metsään.fi won that category this year. But I know more about OP, so I would say something about OP and what I have seen there, and actually have talked with my friends as well. So they are really doing that accessibility well. And if they get some feedback from that feedback form about accessibility, they are just fixing it. And they will do more than only the WCAG. So they want to hear and listen to their customers and also try to get that app and different services there more easily to use for everyone. And also the different people with some challenges and assistive technology. So the attitude there is very good. And from many years ago, they started that and going forward. So it's nice to see that you can do something very well. [Darren] (25:50 - 26:02) So OP Banking Group and Metsään are the people to watch. That's actually all we have time for today. So thank you, Toni and Markus, for joining us. Thanks. Thank you all. And Pinja, once again, thanks for joining us today. [Pinja] (26:03 - 26:04) All right. It was fun. Thank you all. [Darren] (26:04 - 26:06) And we hope you join us next time in the sauna. [Pinja] (26:10 - 26:15) We'll now give our guests a chance to introduce themselves and tell you a little bit about who we are. [Toni] (26:16 - 26:23) Hi, I'm Toni Laakso. I work at Eficode as an accessibility specialist. I help companies build inclusive services. [Markus] (26:23 - 27:09) Hi, my name is Markus Tihumäki, and I'm an accessibility specialist and business developer in Eficode. And for me, accessible services and that inclusive work is very important also because I'm totally blind myself and I have optic nerve atrophy. So nowadays I can't see anything, just lights. So I can't see any screens, etc. So before I saw normally, and then I started to lose my vision, and also have this low vision part, if I can say, in my life. But yeah, nowadays I'm blind and it's very, if I can say, myself important to work with these things. [Darren] (27:02 - 27:09) Hi, I'm Darren Richardson, security consultant at Eficode. [Pinja] (27:09 - 27:13) I'm Pinja Kujala. I specialize in Agile and portfolio management topics at Eficode. [Darren] (27:14 - 27:16) Thanks for tuning in. We'll catch you next time. [Pinja] (27:16 - 27:24)