Entrepreneurship to Consulting

Tuukka (00:01):

I think psychological safety is one of the key things to taking leaps of faith because you need some sort of a background or platter or platform that you can actually push yourself upwards from.

Marc (00:20):

Diversity of experience is something that adds richness, context, and tremendous value; no matter if you have product companies, consultancies, or an entrepreneur. In my career, I've often seen individuals cycling between the changing environments of being a consultant and the focus and pride of ownership and product development. Today, we're adding a third part, the leap of faith of entrepreneurship and the value that can bring when becoming a consultant. Today, we have Tuukka Sarkki, Lead Consultant at Eficode, who will share with us his journey. Let's tune in.

Marc (01:00):

Hello, and welcome to DevOps Sauna. This is Marc, I'll be your host today. Today, we have a really interesting, can I say character? Tuukka Sarkki, who is joining us, one of the recent people who have joined Eficode in the transformations and advisory types of roles. Tuukka, how are you today?

Tuukka (01:20):

I'm fine. Thanks. How are you today?

Marc (01:22):

Happy to be alive. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, Tuukka?

Tuukka (01:28):

 Well, this year is going to be 25 years in the IT scene and I've been shifting between sales and consulting roles throughout my career. Right now, I'm very happy to be here at Eficode.

Marc (01:41):

Sounds cool. One of the things that we're here to talk about today is a path in and out of consultancy that we've seen. Tuukka, we have some things in common that we have both been through entrepreneurship and directorship. And now we're both consultants. Tell a little bit about your path. How did you get here?

Tuukka (02:03):

Yeah, I started my career in the late 90s, starting my own company, and I ran it for 10 years. And the draw for that, as an entrepreneur was, of course, to put myself in dangerous situations and putting myself in places where I haven't been before, seeing things that nobody else has maybe seen. That was my driver. And what I was trying to look for clients that were in difficult situations where we could help with software development, and it was pretty nice. But at some point, after 10 years, I realized that I was maybe not learning enough doing things by myself as the CEO. I decided to leave. 

Tuukka (02:39):

And I actually joined one of the major global consulting companies at that point because I was looking for a place where I could've maybe done more in-depth work, instead of just doing the selling part, which was my main responsibility, my own company after a bit. I did that for some time. And then I got this idea that maybe I should try sales again. And I was in a sales role in another company doing more maybe superficial work, but still helping companies in identifying ways that they could leverage digital transformation as a business driver. And most recently, before joining Eficode, I was at Vincit. And there I also started with a sales role. But I eventually there as well, I started thinking about going in more detail into the client’s world, and digging deeper into what was the business drivers and living their life with them instead of just doing the opening work as a salesperson. So that's what I did. 

Tuukka (03:39):

I also spent one year before joining Eficode on a sabbatical thinking about life, and what are the directions that I could take. And then when the opportunity to join Eficode came up, I was very eager to join in as a lead consultant. Because during my sabbatical, I found that maybe a part of my identity has always been this storytelling, and looking for ways that a narrative could explain things to other people in their lives. And that's one of the things that I have tried to leverage as a consultant throughout my career as well. So very happy to be here right now at Eficode and trying to tell business-relevant stories to our clients.

Marc (04:17):

I'm so glad that you brought up the storytelling. I think it's one of the greatest gifts that someone can have the ability to create a narrative in order to bridge in our case, what we're often doing is between developers, testers, do-ers, operative people, and management in order to build not only a common vocabulary so that they can communicate, but also a common narrative so they can get on the same page together. 

Tuukka (04:18):

Exactly. 

Marc (04:20):

I think it's really powerful. I didn't think of this before meeting you, Tuukka, that one thing that I've seen a lot is people going back and forth between product and consulting roles. And as a consultant, I have certain responsibilities towards my customer, but also the customer oftentimes bears the ultimate responsibility for choices that they make. And then I get to see lots of different things and get exposure to many different ways of working and different people. And then this differs from a product focus.

Tuukka (05:19):

Yeah, very much so. And I think one of the most interesting things in consulting is that you're responsible for the client, of course, but you are there as an outsider. And I liked the point of view and the perspective of an outsider because then you're able to see things that are not, maybe, obvious to the client themselves. And if you're in a product role, you live within the thing itself. And it becomes harder to see the things that an outsider might see. And this is where storytelling also comes into play. You're able, as an outsider, to pick up the things that actually make the narrative of the product or the client and form them in a way that when somebody is living through that stuff, they would have never realized that themselves. 

Tuukka (06:06):

But at least there's actually the story that I'm living through. And this helps me to also identify the ways how the story continues from here onwards in a very logical and natural way. So there's a natural flow to things, I think, that we can follow as consultants, and we just need to find a way forward and help our clients also to find the right way for them to proceed their narrative.

Marc (06:28):

Exactly. I think one of the most rewarding things to me as a consultant is that because I'm not a member of the customer organization, I am not bound by their politics or by their silos. And the ability to transcend an organization and bring people together across the organization. It's like one of the greatest things is just, I call a meeting that has people that have never been in the room before together, and then all of a sudden, they realize that they're on the same side, or that they have the same struggles or things. I think that's really cool. 

Marc (07:04):

And another thing you've probably seen, but one of the other things about consulting versus product business, that for me is really neat is in the product business, you're always trying to get closer to the customer. And if you're not, you're going to lose. And by the way, if you're not close to the customer, the product business, you're not going to build what they actually are looking for. But in consulting, the product is us, and we are working directly with the customer. I think that's one really neat aspect of getting to do this every day.

Tuukka (07:36):

Yeah. And I think there's a delicate balance as an outsider. When you're coming into the lives of somebody else, there's always the balancing between as an outsider, do you revolutionize, and do you radicalize, or do you make an evolution happen at the client? Which is the right way for the client to do? And that's always one of the key questions that I think about when I'm approaching a client. Is it about an evolutionary step towards something? What's the story going to be? Or is it about the revolution that we need to help the client to execute in some way and radicalize the client and help them in finding ways that they can become the next thing from a caterpillar to a butterfly?

Marc (08:18):

Very cool. Speaking of storytelling, as you led us in here, really nicely, can you tell us a little bit about the story of how you got into this, was there a moment that changed the direction in your life, or maybe showed you what the path is next?

Tuukka (08:40):

Yeah, there was at one point, maybe it's taking a step back towards how I perceived myself. I've always thought of myself as an introvert. And I was very hesitant to take up public speaking, for example, but then at one point, I got the opportunity to go on stage and talk about things that I really knew about in terms of digital transformation. And I was thinking about, "Do I go out and present myself as just another guy in a suit and take it as some sort of an armor to protect myself from the public? Or do I go really as myself?" I took the loudest t-shirt and the noisiest socks that I had, and I took my shoes off when I went on stage. 

Tuukka (09:20):

And I started presenting and at that point, I realized that I'm really at home here. I'm telling stories that I really know and feel about, which I know are also interesting to the client, and all the audience, and it felt good. After that point, I haven't been very hesitant. It's always exciting to go on stage, definitely. But I'm not afraid of it. And I embrace the feeling that when I'm on stage, telling stories, it feels really good. And after that, I also picked up the narratives and the storytelling as a format of working with clients because that also felt to me as a natural way to start guiding the clients and the customers in their daily lives. So how do we make the chaos that's the business life more palatable? We tried to pick up narratives on how have we actually got here and what is the way forward based on where we have been up to this point and who we are, and also touching the identity of the client themselves. Who are they? And why are they in their clients’ lives and their customers lives themselves? What's the purpose of them being in that daily business of their clients? With these questions, it's easier to steer the discussions and very complex projects and engagements with clients in terms of picking up a story. And that's one of the, maybe, biggest realizations that I have had through first public speaking and taking the leap of faith in going on stage and presenting stories to clients and then leveraging the same with a client work in consulting.

Marc (10:51):

Oh my gosh, Tuukka, this in so few words, with a story like this, you can say so many different things. I too am an introvert, and I found my comfort on the stage. Going to a party or a networking event and having to talk to everybody, it's terrifying for me. People in Finland will understand that more than the rest of the world. <laughs> But then I also realized when I played some music when I was young. And I realized that being on stage is a certain thing, but I was terrified to start getting on stages and speaking events and trainings and things like this the first time, but my armor was actually the leather pants, which was me and making me feel really comfortable. But I decided that I could just be myself on stage and that it was something that was actually almost a gift, it's something that I have to offer. I never would have known if I hadn't taken the leap of faith. 

(11:42):

And this is another really interesting thing that you've brought up. That psychological safety from the people around you and from your environment is one thing but taking risks, and your own comfort zone and even maybe pushing your personal safety limits yourself a bit, you can all of a sudden find that your path has options on it, it has forks that you never would have looked at before. If you had never gotten on that stage, we might not be having this conversation now. 

Tuukka (12:13):

Yeah, exactly. 

Marc (12:14):

Really, really cool. And I think another thing that you had talked about with this, getting to the clients and helping them really understand what is their story. Oftentimes, all the bits and pieces are there, but they can't necessarily see what it really is because they've been doing it like this for so long. And the company has all of these things that they say that the culture is, but telling somebody your culture doesn't mean that's what people are actually living on a daily basis. But one of the things that I do as a consultant as well, that you remind me of here is we actually help our customers to tell their own story.

Tuukka (12:56):

Yeah, exactly. The story is always there. We don't make up the story for the clients, it already exists. And it's our job to refine it, and identify it, and then push it back to the client and tell them in so many ways that this is the actual story that you have been telling us.

Marc (13:13):

It's really interesting as well how you’re putting yourself outside your comfort zone, it can affect the way that you see the path that you're on. Our customers as well as all of us as humans were on a path, but if we don't stop and look around every now and again and evaluate where we are, then we don't know, we can just keep slogging forward and miss so many things.

Tuukka (13:38):

Yeah, I think psychological safety is one of the key things to taking leaps of faith because you need a background or platter or platform that you can actually push yourself upwards from. And I think that's been what I have been picking up the places that I like to work or where I would like to work. I've tried to identify places where there exists this psychological safety idea, companies that facilitate being yourself and being able to leverage your identity in your work. And I think I have found Eficode to be one of such places, definitely. It's very important that you have this feeling of safety. And from there onwards, it's easier to pick up the new challenges and some of the gaps and chasms that you can leap over.

Marc (14:26):

Really cool. I like this idea is that, once we have found a place of safety or we've moved into a place of safety, then we can disturb that a bit and understand what we're really capable of. Learning to get on the stage and do public speaking got you into entrepreneurship. So how do you, Tuukka, compare entrepreneurship track to the consulting track? Are there some parallels and some differences that you've identified? 

Tuukka (14:54):

There are definitely parallels. So as an entrepreneur, you're always taking chances and you're always pushing your limits and going to places that you haven't been before, it's necessary to drive the business. And as a consultant, of course, you're always taking risks in terms of you're going to a place that you don't know yet. And you need to get to know these people and their business very deeply, to understand them, and to really help them and you're never quite sure what you're going to face when you're actually digging deep into some company, which have been running their business for such a long time. And all the people and individuals with their own agendas, and what is the common thing there. 

Tuukka (15:33):

In that regard, I think entrepreneurship and consulting are a bit similar. But of course, as an entrepreneur, you are responsible for everything, the toilet paper, and printing machines, and everything. And it's easier in that regard, to work as a consultant where your only responsibility is towards the client and the customer, and helping them in ways that are business relevant and pushing them forward. You can better focus on the things that are really interesting. And you'll still get the dynamic of being able to work with different clients and different customers. And there's that dynamic that keeps me going and keeps things interesting in terms of getting to know new people or new companies in a certain frequency. Instead of just like, as an entrepreneur, I had maybe worked with 20 clients throughout the year. And now I'm able to focus on only a few companies throughout the year, which is, at the moment, the right pace for me. It's easier to get to know the companies more deeply and getting to know their stories, and helping them in the long term, rather than just going in and out as a salesperson.

Marc (16:47):

Yeah, I think it's fair to mention we've noticed some different kinds of consultants who work at Eficode and other places, for example, there are Dolphin consultants to use some metaphors from the sea. Dolphins often see things from the high level, they're able to go up above what's going on in the deep sea below and have a bird's eye view almost. And they might hop around, and be very mobile, see lots of different customers for different kinds of things. And then we have Whale consultants who go really deep, and they might go so deep into a customer that they forget where their paycheck is signed from, and they call their boss their customer and things like that. 

Tuukka (17:33):

And we also have Manatee type of consultants, where we have some people that they just want to do the same things, mostly day in and day out, they might want a little bit of variety, or they might change their customers every 3, 6, 12, 24 months, but just want the flow. Lots of different kinds of people can get into consulting. Which type of sea creature are you, Tuukka?

Tuukka (17:57):

I think I'm a Dolphin at the moment. I like to play around with different clients and have this dynamic where I'm able to get a high-level perspective on things. Sometimes they dive a little bit deeper and play with the Whales as well. But rather looking at things on a level that are maybe also from the top of the surface and seeing how things are in big picture. That's what interests me because the story is always not in the deepest details. It's a high-level story. And as a storyteller, that's my perspective. So trying to find a bigger story there and the epic.

Marc (18:35):

I completely share this with you as well. And I think that oftentimes, what the customers are coming to us for is they have a technical problem to solve. And what they don't realize is that they have a quite deep cultural situation that causes the problems. What they come to us for is a symptom of something that when you come up to the high level, and you look across, you span the directorships or the domains within the organization as a Dolphin consultant, then that perspective, I think is what actually then allows drilling down through the layers in order to solve things that don't just solve the symptom that they came to us for, but also solve a much wider set of problems. 

Tuukka (19:19):

Yeah, exactly. 

Marc (19:20):

Eficode is known as a DevOps company. Of course, we're a transformation and advisory company, we also do design & accessibility, but had you done DevOps before, Tuukka?

Tuukka (19:30):

No, I had, of course, worked with DevOps people earlier. And my whole career has been in software in one way or another. I was very much aware of it, but the depth of which I could bring to the table was not very deep, but I do see it as a core of digital transformation. And the ways that it's actually done to achieve a full business automation, which I perceive as the grail of why we are doing things. It was very interesting for me to come to Eficode and maybe learn a little bit more about DevOps and dive a little bit deeper into that while still trying to maintain the perspective that I am able to bring as my history and trauma history as a Dolphin, who gets the bigger picture quite fast and is able to drive that thing forward with the storytelling and other narratives, and then leverage on the people here at Eficode, who are very much deeper in DevOps than I am in myself.

Marc (20:36):

Yeah. It's all business first, isn't it? And then how do you see transformation in DevOps? If DevOps is the core and businesses first, are there some connections, or how do you approach transformation?

Tuukka (20:53):

It's always business first. The continuity of the business is, of course, the top priority. And from there on, it comes down towards the culture, and the processes and the tools, which are, of course, related then to the DevOps. DevOps, as I say, is at the core, it's a culture, and then then the tools and the processes. For me, it's like DevOps is the way to link the business operations towards the technical stuff in a way that enables the people individually working more efficiently towards achieving a better level of automation in the company. It might be internal work, or it might be product work towards their clients, but it's always about making the business more efficient and raising the level of automation within the company.

Marc (21:47):

Hi, it's Marc again, if you're interested in looking inside or outside of your comfort zone, and would like to work with an amazing group of people serving some fantastic world-leading clients, then please have a look at eficode.com/careers. Submit an open application, see if there is something that you like, and we'd be really happy to talk with you. Thank you. And back to the episode. 

Marc (22:13):

It's interesting that you said the word efficient. One thing as a consultant for me, of course, what do I want to enable, as far as business is concerned? There's traditionally two ways of looking at things. There's top line and bottom line, isn't it? And efficiency does not have to mean bottom line. To me, efficiency is the greatest enabler for business agility, and the ability to make top line growth, which is I think, where the sex appeal of a company, often times has to do with how much is it growing? Or how well? Or how will it grow?

Tuukka (22:51):

Yeah, I talk about efficiency a lot, because that leaves open the how are we efficient? Are we efficient in raising the top line or the bottom line? And that's totally depending on the story of the client. What are they trying to achieve? And what is their maturity in the market? And how are they operating? And how would they like to operate in the market? Are they looking for growth? Or are they just looking for better profitability, or something like that. 

Marc (23:37):

Just to open this up a little bit for our listeners, top line has to do about growth, and it's acquiring new customers and the ability to acquire new business, it could be business lines, it could be new features that add value to customers, and therefore end up with more business. Bottom line is the profit. And many people think of business only in terms of profit. But if you have a business that has proven that it has a profitable business model than investment into that company, and the use of that investment in efficiency. DevOps tools, practices, cultural things, can enable more top line so we can sacrifice some profitability for a little while in order to make tremendously more growth once we've proven that we have the bottom line in place. What is the transformation? We haven't actually even talked about that.

Tuukka (24:05):

Yeah, that's a good question. And maybe we touched on it a little bit earlier. Is it about a revolution? Or is it about evolution? Are we radicalizing? Or are we just there to help people to lean things up a little bit, perhaps, in terms of their day-to-day life? But for me, the key thing is always the backstory. There's no greenfield, usually, in the transformation, as I see it, so we always start with something existing, and we need to pick up from where they actually are. And you need to live with the past to a certain extent, and then identify ways to work forward from thereon. So it can be that some companies need to take a radical step, but those are quite rare. Usually, it's more about making an evolutionary step towards something that's more, usually, we talk about (unintelligible), so reducing waste and making things, again, more efficient, and so forth. Transforming things that have been analog to digital, and doing things manually is usually the thing of the past and transforming things to be more automated is one key part of the digital transformation. 

Tuukka (25:19):

We are transforming the companies in terms of very tangible things, of course, on the core level, but it's also about culture. So how do we transform the culture to something that's more agile or lean or responsive to change overall because the market is always changing? And we may need to make companies more robust and resilient to the towards the change as well. What is the core of the business? And what is the thing that is not changing when the market changes, and what needs to change with the market are some of the quiz questions that I always ask when I approach clients. 

Marc (25:58):

You made a really interesting connection there. A lot of times when we approach customer, they've always done it this way. And they've been successful doing it this way for a long time. And if nothing changed, chances are they could continue to be successful in doing things. Now, there's a lot of software development work out there, that's not sustainable, creating technical debt. And not building enablers, instead only focusing on features and the shiny things and sacrificing infrastructure, all that kind of stuff. But one of the most dangerous things that I've heard is, "we've always done it this way". When we move things to Agile and Lean, we're able to respond to changes in markets, or things like pandemics or God help us, wars, or these kinds of things. Are there some things that you see here as well that's in the transformation to agility?

Tuukka (26:52):

So, Agile is, of course, a bit marshy area. Agile can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. And there's usually two different sides to being agile. And it usually comes to this struggle between business agile, and being technically agile. There's business agility, which means responsiveness to this market situations and changing environment in the first place. And then there's this technical agility, which is easier to grasp, which means that then its internal responsiveness towards the new business requirements. And what's mostly lacking with the client is there's a business agility. So how do we respond to these changing markets and changing field that we're operating in and the industry. And is it much easier to implement this. Well, let's pick up Scrum or Kanban or whatever as a way to do things technically, more efficiently, and then call us agile.

Marc (27:52):

This is a really great statement. I've seen companies that there's many, "Oh well, we tried Agile." Or, "We've had some difficulties with Agile.” There's some very large-scale, examples of this all over the place. And usually what they completely don't get is that they also need to make the front end the business end Agile. It's not just about cargo cultism or something. Well, we have Scrum because we do the ceremonies and we have the meetings and all of that, but then the business expects us to have a year-long plan and a year-long budget cycle. And allow you to absolutely keep every promise that we make. Instead of focusing on being good at change, and being good at making small things and testing them and navigating through the waters. The more you change things, the better you get that change itself and the better you are at change itself, the more agility you have.

Tuukka (29:53):

I think it's pretty much the same with Lean. I've seen many clients who are very lean on the shop floor in the factories, but then at the office, they are having so much waste. They are spending their time in meetings that are unnecessary and so forth. So it's like easy to implement Lean, easy to implement Agile in ways that are obvious in technical ways and then on very concrete level, but then taking the perspective of agile or lean and pointing it towards the office work and the business life and how are we actually operating with our clients, it's much harder, and that's usually the power that's of keen interest to me as well. So how do we make these companies lean and agile in terms of business as well.

Marc (30:47):

Yeah, me too. It comes to this back to the top of one of the things that you said, Tuukka. It's about the storytelling in the narrative and finding the company's story from an outsider's perspective to help to raise the internal story to one that actually covers from the business through the technology and all of the people in between.

Tuukka (31:19):

And of course, while doing that, you're always trying to find the right balance between the internal struggle that always exists within the company, especially in the software business of hopefully, technology and the business because they work at a different pace and they have a different mode of operation at their core. So what I try to do is find the right balance between the push and pull of these two aspects of the technical work that's actually trying to achieve something tangible towards clients and then the business life, which is often more chaotic and not as structured and obviously agile as the technical work. So this is always something as well that I've tried to identify. So what is the power play within the company internally. So who's actually driving, is it the technical side or is it the business side? And how do we make these to work better together and find the balance and the right priorities between, for example, the continuity of the business and developing new features which might be very radical, but very necessary for the business. So it always comes back to the human that have loads of money, but you only have so many people who are who can actually do the transformation work that needs to be done to achieve something better. So what is the priority of work there? And how do we identify that so it's, it's never easy, but it's always doable when you look at story.

Marc (33:53):

I have a couple of examples. One is that one of my favorite products that we have our services that we have is our assessments. We have many different clients with many different names in DevOps 360, to name a few. When I do an assessment, regardless of what the label was, I bring people together from different departments. I ask them, we have a questionnaire or an AB question on it. And it's everything from management and culture to automation, DevOps, and all these kinds of things. But what I do is I get a common conversation going across different departments about things that should be important to any kind of business. and what I tell them at the beginning is that the company wants to make improvements and wants to make change and this means change in your life. And if we are successful, what does a positive change in your work life mean to you and what are some things that I can help validate and take to your management and tell your story so that you and your colleague’s work-life gets better and the business gets better. Everything improves not only the ways of working processes and tools business but also the psychological safety and the creativity and the innovation of people.

Tuukka (34:22):

I find the assessment tools very cool here at Eficode and it brings structure to otherwise very chaotic work environment. And for me, when I do assessments, and try to dig deeper in to the client's life, I've tried to find the purpose of the individual people's work. So are they able to even state that what's the purpose of your work, why are you doing this that we are doing at the moment? And once we identify that, it's much easier to also look for ways and ask questions about how do we improve your work life because if you have a purpose, then you are also able to identify the things that are enabling you to go towards that purpose. And those are the things that you want to cut off. Of course, we got started driving you forward, there are pushing you back or keeping you in place. And usually if there's no clear purpose statement or statement of why are we actually doing this that we are doing as an individual or team within the company, it's a little bit of a red flag for me, because then there's some gap in the internal story that the company has been telling internally. We need to find out the reason for that. So what's the somebody needs to know the focus of the individual and the work that they are doing?

Marc (34:49):

I like this very much. Every person in the organization should have a sense of purpose and a sense of pride in the work that they're doing. The company should have a sense of purpose and why it exists and what it is, you know what its purpose and mission and all of these things are helping to not necessarily consolidate, build that narrative and that story across all the different layers of the organization. It's the greatest gift that I get in this job.

Tuukka (35:19):

And it's also always as I have found hidden behind on those usually you go to a client, they try to present you with sort of process this scrape some documentation, "This is how we are doing things," but it's usually lacking the purpose. And it's always when you're interviewing individual people and looking at the processes and contrasting for the things that their people have actually been telling. Okay, this is the purpose of my work, and then do check the project description. It might be completely different. So I do believe in documenting processes and defining processes as such touching deeply enough on the actual purpose and the drivers for the work so this is why it's also important to rely on people and the stories that they are telling rather than just looking at the documentation that the client is giving to you with a face value and that is the reality of our work. Nobody really believes in that.

Marc (36:02):

All right, any further stories, Tuukka?

Tuukka (36:05):

There's so plenty, but those might not be relevant today here. Maybe we need to book another session for all the other stuff that I have in mind.

Marc (36:13):

I'd absolutely love to hear them. I'd like to thank you, Tuukka, for not only for joining Eficode and the great work that you do here, but you're starting this conversation and joining us on the podcast today. If I kind of sum it up, what I learned as you know we're all looking for purpose in life. And all of us are on a path. You have companies are on a path, individuals are on a path, cultures are on a path. We should stop and look around every now and again and understand the options that are before us and if we can, look at options that are outside of our comfort zone. And if you stop and look around you might find things, paths that you didn't even know that you had. Oftentimes we can cycle between things like entrepreneurship, and consulting, and product-based businesses to learn different parts of ourselves, and then sometimes we may get a little time off and we understand which ones are more important to us. They could change our lives by taking a risk every now and again. So this is Marc and we have here Tuukka Sarkki, Lead Consultant at Eficode.

Tuukka (37:00):

Thanks, Marc. It was very nice being here and a very beautiful summary of what we discussed.

Marc (37:06):

Okay. And thank you very much, Tuukka. Once again, this is Marc. This is the Eficode DevOps Sauna podcast. Thank you for tuning in. 

Tuukka (37:26):

Bye.

Marc (37:27):

Thank you for listening. If you haven't already, please subscribe to our podcast and give us a rating on your platform. It means the world to us. Also, check out our other episodes for interesting and exciting discussions.