Maintaining psychological safety: Stress and burnout in IT

Marc (00:06): I don't have time to meditate and I don't, you know, this and that. You can have one mindful breath a day and start there.

Welcome to DevOps Sauna Season 4, the podcast where technology meets culture and security is the bridge that connects them. Welcome back to the DevOps Sauna. Hello, Darren. How are you today?

Darren (00:43): Afternoon, Marc. I'm doing pretty well. How are you?

Marc (00:47): I have to be honest with you. I'm a bit stressed and I think that is an important topic that I'd like to bring to our listeners today and talk about at least the things that I've learned about stress in IT and the things that you have experience with. And I think that it's something that we could hopefully help a lot of our listeners with today.

Darren (01:10): Yeah, I like it. It sort of clings to our theme of maintaining psychological safety that we've been trying to put into this season. Hopefully we'll be able to talk about a bit more going forward.

Marc (01:20): Absolutely. One thing I want to point out, though, is although I understand that I am in a stress condition and I've been for some number of days, my work is brilliant. I love the work I do and the people I work with and I'm not overworked by any means, unless you're my manager, at which point, yes, I'm completely overworked, but never mind that now. But yeah, everything with work is fine. Everything at home is fine. My hobbies are fine. I have a reasonable exercise routine. I exercise every morning. I do yoga and some kettlebell types of exercises. My hobbies are good. I've got creative expression working. But yet I understand at the moment that I am in a state of stress.

Darren (01:59): And this is something curious to me because you list off all these reasons why life is good and you say you're stressed. So I guess what I want to look at is how do you know? How do you feel this? How do you express this? Because to me, if you list off a load of this is good, this is good, this is good, and then I'm stressed, they don't go together. So can you open up more on that?

Marc (02:22): It's a really good question, Darren, because one of the things about stress is it can sneak up on you and there's not like you take a test and it says, oh, yes, you're stressed. And it doesn't always show up as something like blood pressure. It certainly doesn't show up as something as simple as taking your temperature. So one of the things that's important that I've learned is you have to look for signs of stress in yourself and others. Now everybody's personal and may have different things, but some common ones that I believe in and understand, irritability is one, not being able to focus as easily as you do on a task or not being able to necessarily get things done in the way that you expect. Generally speaking, I sleep extremely well. I'm quite fortunate there. But at the moment, I also have some sleeping issues. It's really common with many people. And actually not sleeping is kind of a compound problem with stress. If you're waking up in the middle of the night thinking about worries, then actually you're going to compound the stress reactions that you're going to receive because your body's not going to have the time to repair itself. One of my favorite things, I don't do this a lot, but I'll talk about it some more in the tools section of this podcast. But arguing nonsense is something that you will often see. You see this in stressed people, stressed organizations as well where, you know, I have imposter syndrome. I'm not good enough. I, I, I am a problem or you, they, they, they are a problem or history. Why have we always done this in a bad way or something? But, you know, arguing nonsense and really, really holding onto that, you know, can also for some people be a sign of stress.

Darren (04:04): So yeah, you're looking at this kind of mentality of rumination, this sort of thought process of negativity as an easy, well, maybe not easy identifier, but something we can cling to. But you actually mentioned something that's curious because you were talking about like you feel stressed, but then you also moved on to a stressed organization and it leads us into these kind of types of stress that we have and that we can see in daily life. And so, yeah, we have the personal stress, obviously, that's the situation you're feeling right now. But if we start talking about team and organizational stress, these are things that we can see across organizations as well. So we have a stress where it's no individual person in a team might be experiencing these symptoms, but whenever they come together for dailies, whenever they sit down for meetings, then the kind of aura of like mentality in that room is one of stress. And this can, I presume, be driven by a great deal of things. We're probably going to come into like stressing factors later. But also when it comes to organizations, I think we can see across like vast swathes of companies where stress is being generated and passed much further than we might consider. But outside of those three, what other kinds of stress types do you think we might experience, but not really be considering?

Marc (05:30): I think one of the ones that people can relate to that's not always apparent is person-to-person stress as well. And this is, you know, you obviously may feel it like if you have a big boss that stops at your desk or something and you feel your stress levels rise. And then guess what? You're not focusing the way that you were. You’re maybe, irritable might be the wrong word, but you're kind of jumpy, you know, not necessarily, you know, thinking through answers or something like that. Or if you're, for example, put on the spot by a manager or by someone in a group setting. So, when we think about that peer-to-peer stress and then the person leaves and your stress level mostly may recede. But this is one of the ones that I think is really interesting because it can be one big trigger that some people will just cause stress for others, the way that they operate. They may trigger something from our past. You know, maybe we were bullied by someone like that, or maybe they remind you of or something. But the idea is here that it's not just personal. It can be when the team comes together for work. You can have, like we do a lot of transformation work in Eficode and we've seen organizations get, you know, get stressed where the organization will follow exactly the same types of symptoms, you know, irritability, lack of focus in an organization, things like that. And then there are these triggers. I remember that when I first came to Finland, I saw an older lady stepping into a zebra crosswalk where a bus had just started to creep away from the bus stop. And the bus laid on the horn for the old lady who is legally crossing in a zebra crosswalk. And I got really upset. And for a very long time, when I would be in zebra crosswalks and I would see a bus coming, I would feel a fear that, you know, is that bus driver going to be, you know, mad at me for legally crossing in front of it like that one did for that lady at that time. So we also will have lots and lots of different types of personal triggers. And if we are thinking of these in terms of when we identify something, then we can use, you know, empathy and tools in order to try to mitigate it. When we see other people change in front of us and realize that perhaps they may be in a state of stress and we should think a little bit differently about how we want to get the best outcome for them and for us in a conversation or a work situation.

Darren (07:57): Yeah, and that's interesting you talk about triggers because before we were mentioning the idea of having a stress situation induced on you that then kind of lingers, this exists with the triggers. And the reason we have this is basically we have to talk about cortisol and this is like the stress hormone. This is the reason our brains act the way they do. So the stress hormone essentially exists to shift our brain from the kind of logical creatures we've become to a more rudimentary fight or flight species. It's the part of our brains that exist to keep us alive in times of stress. It's why stress feelings are so overpowering. It's why they can feel like they're not being controlled. And the thing about the cortisol hormone is like every hormone in the human body, it has a half-life. And the half-life is how long it takes that hormone and the effect of that hormone to basically stop, to stop having an effect on us. And a pro tip, it is not as quickly as the hormone activates. So what we have is these extremely rapid peaks and then kind of a slow burning off of this cortisol. And that's actually like, that's a normal human function. We don't need to do anything about that unless we're hitting a kind of area where we're seeing repeated peaks. Because the process is actually exponential in those cases where we will see a peak and not have time for the hormone to die down. And then we'll have another peak which increases as further and further and further. And in these kind of cascading situations, those alarm trigger responses, the fight or flight just repeatedly happening is what leads us to things like burnout. And I think we talk, there are certain people in IT who talk at conferences and it's always mentioned. Burnout in IT is a huge problem. And these stressing factors are one of the key reasons.

Marc (10:00): I'm glad you mentioned this alarm trigger response. One way to think about this, like if you think about evolution, right? If there's something in the bush that scares you, you stand there to think about, hmm, I wonder if that could be this type of thing or that type of thing. It's not going to be very good for your evolutionary survival. So one of the things that this fight or flight does is it teaches us to run first and think later about the thing. So when we are first exposed to an alarm of any kind and we get a little bit of this cortisol bump, we are able to adapt a lot easier. And okay, so that was far away and it's just a bird in the bush and it's not a problem. And over time, the many birds appearing in the bush might cause us more and more and more cortisol, more stress hormone, more anxiety, until such point that something shakes the bush, we run away and that was the time that it's a tiger. So this continual stress, raising the levels of cortisol, raising the fight or flight response, you know, this is another trigger or I'm sorry, another symptom that we should probably think about. Feeling the need to run away from a situation is clearly right in line here. But I'll lead off of where you were taking us, Darren, as well: which stress factors? So my favorite one of these in IT, and I have it myself, is imposter syndrome.

Darren (11:23): Yep, 100%. That's something that I suffer from on a daily basis, like not knowing whether or not I know how to do my job.

Marc (11:31): And this, you know, I just want to tell you, everybody that's listening here, you are not alone. We all feel this in IT all the time, I'm sure in other disciplines as well. Every artist I've ever known, except for the truly narcissistic ones, and maybe even some of those, also felt like nothing was ever good enough. There are some other stress factors, the lack of control. This can be anything along the lines of not being able to select the tasks that you want, not being able to, you know, get a monitor where you can clearly see the things that you're working on. It can be lack of control in traffic, you know, somebody cuts you off. It can be lack of control in, you know, going to the queue to get the coffee in the morning, and, you know, you're not able to get the coffee fast enough. It can be lots of different kinds of things.

Darren (12:22): Yeah, you mentioned a couple of things here that are actually quite interesting to me, because so far we've been focusing on work stress, but work and life always bleed into each other, no matter how good we think we are at separating. We don't just leave the office at five o'clock and then switch off the work brain. So there's always going to be things from the social side that bleed into these stress factors too, things like social pressure. The things that are going on in your life are going to have an impact on your work, and the things that happen in your work are going to have an impact on your life. So you can be having a great time at work, and then if you have troubles at home, this is going to bleed into things. And it's, again, going to start causing the feedback loop of cortisol. And then we have other like work sort of things. I think we should talk about maybe deadlines. And I think this is more of a thing for your side than mine. So where we have these extremely high pressure deadlines.

Marc (13:20): And if you mix lack of control and deadlines together, then welcome back to Waterfall. So this used to be a huge one for me, where I would have deadlines that were strongly imposed upon me that I had no say upon. And then it even happens today where we do our best to make good estimates for things, and we add a buffer. And then we turn around and in a short period of time, we realize that, okay, that deadline that we had just promised with all best efforts. And this is a problem everywhere. Estimates is one of the most difficult types of things. But this is certainly something that leads a lot to stress. And one other thing is a lack of outlet for this information. I've had the privilege to sit in management areas before. I've been in the C-suite on a few occasions. And one of the things like especially management and especially even middle management, there are very few people that you can talk to that can understand what it is that you go through on a day-to-day basis. And especially those that aren't just trying to fix it all the time. I have good friends and for example, my wife as well, where if I'm stressed and I try to talk about a situation that I'm in, then they are more trying to fix it than just kind of listen and allow me to be able to vent the things that are going on. Which actually leads me to one of the first tools. So this is the stuff that some of the things that I've learned in not only in therapy, but in reading and research and 30 plus years of mostly leading people in software and R&D organizations. That there is a way of using talking and our inner monologue that actually connects the lizard brain, amygdala, is that right? With the neocortex. I'm more familiar with that part. So fight or flight is one of the things that emotions tell us to do. The old part, the lizard brain. But one of the few connections between the lizard brain and the neocortex is verbal. And what this means in practice for me, what I have practiced over the years that helps me a great deal and I've seen help others as well, is if you are able in your inner monologue or verbally to talk about how you feel in a situation without attachment, that is a key part, without adding something to how you feel, then you may create more connections between that emotion and the neocortex, which allows you to have a little bit better control in that instance of that emotion and to build a little bit of muscle memory over time. So if I'm able to say, I don't feel good about this, I don't feel good about this, I feel my blood pressure rising. I feel stress coming on my body. That's good. And that's what we're talking about. If instead I start following the rumination cycle like, you know, why do I always feel like this? And how did they do this to me again? And why am I here? And all of these types of things. That doesn't help so much. But if we're able to try to mirror, if we're able to try to mirror only our emotions through verbal, communicating that with others or using very loudly our inner monologue. I've been taught this and I've also found in practice that this helps a lot. I call it the stream of emotional consciousness.

Darren (16:48): And I think an important thing here is also mentioned to the other side, because we're talking about talking here, we're talking about communicating, but the other side of this is to be able to provide a platform for listening. And like active listening, not to actually listen and try and fix, not to try and provide a solution, but just to be there and understand, to have someone to be able to vent these things to is critical. And we have kind of a lot of stigma in our society about these, because here we are talking about psychological safety. We're talking about mental health. And these kinds of issues have a stigma that we need to work through, because right now there are people who need to be having these conversations who are not, and there are people who need to be taking a role of active listening who are not. And it reminds me of this at Disobey last year, 2023, there was a Juho Jauhiainen, who actually got up on the stage with a presentation in front of a bunch of like hackers, security people, uber nerds, and gave a presentation about losing my mental health in cybersecurity, where he actually talked about his experience of dealing with these levels of stress and the kind of stress spikes of these difficult situations and how before that point, he hadn't really felt comfortable understanding that this is just another way of taking care of yourself. And it's one of the most neglected ways.

Marc (18:21): I think that's really fantastic. And we need to understand this all very well, that you are not alone in feeling stress factors. You're not alone in needing to have the tools to be able to work through them. And you're not alone in needing to understand how to listen to understand and empathize rather than listen in order to speak or prepare something.

Darren (18:49): But you have like this toolkit that you've built up, and I have to admit, I'm less in tune with the ideas of psychological safety. And you've mentioned before, I think, these panel approaches. So can you go into those and kind of expand more on what this means?

Marc (19:04): Yes. So I have at least two tools that you can do on paper and mentally also, obviously, virtually. But the first one I call three panel. So what you do is you take a sheet of A4 and you lay it in front of us and you draw two lines so that essentially you have three equal surfaces. And then in no particular order on the top, you write the perspective of another party, a party that you are having a stress relationship with, or that could be an organization even, it can be a human. But essentially, when you have this person-to-person or human-to-human types of stress factors. So on the other side, write the perspective of the person on the side away from you. So how does, you know, if I were to do this with Darren, how does Darren see this podcast? What are Darren's expectations from this podcast? How can I try to think as much as I can with what I know about Darren about what his expectations, where does he come from? Okay, he comes from a certain culture. Maybe I write that down. He comes from a certain area, which is security. Maybe I write that down. But I put everything that I can trying to put myself in the other party's shoes. And I put that on the top third of the paper, the part that's facing away from me. On the bottom part, I write about how I feel about the situation. And say, if Darren and I were having a very strong disagreement over the direction of the podcast, and it was causing me stress whenever we were trying to do this work together, then on the bottom, I would try to say, you know, I want to educate and inspire people. I want to be able to have my voice heard from my experience. I want to be able to feel good about helping to positively impact people's lives. I want to be able to contribute and do my thing. So I put that on the third panel that is the nearest to me. Then on the middle, and this is where the work is, I spend some time to try to create a safe zone that I will feel safe to engage with the other party, the one that's causing me stress. And when I actually engage with that other party, this is the only stuff that I will talk about. So I have used this in times in the past where there may be a difficult team member that likes to look at things in an idealistic point of view when I need to look at things in a practical point of view. So on the top, I will try to understand as much of their idealism as possible. On the bottom, I will try to put together the practical things that I need to work on. And then in the middle, I can put some questions and some statements that I feel safe about and prepare so that the next time that I meet this person that causes me stress, or if I'm in a team that causes me stress or something like that, I have pre-created a safe zone. And if I stay within that safe zone, I will continue to be safe and not be overcome by the stress factors of the situation. So that's three panel. On the outside, you put how the other party, how you perceive their viewpoint. On the near side, you put your viewpoint. And then in the middle, you create a safe zone of collaboration.

Darren (22:22): Okay, that makes sense. So you're basically creating a map of acceptable subjects, acceptable conversation topics, and kind of giving yourself guidelines on how to interact. But then how do we work with four panels?

Marc (22:35): Well, I'll say one other thing about three panels that kind of came up actually, which is that it's okay to deflect anything that is not in your safe zone. If it's not there in the middle, you either answer something different, or you ask a different question. You say, I can't address that area right now. Or if you're left with no other recourse, then you can politely back away from the conversation and say, okay, I see that we can't continue here and politely back away and pursue other measures. Now, four panel is a different idea. And this ties back to one of the early things that I talked about, about stress indicators. And when we find people ruminating, when we find people that talk about, I used to, so it's me, you, and history, or I suck, you suck, or why have we always sucked? Those types of discussions. When you see somebody that is stuck in this loop, what I do is I make a four, like I make a cross in the middle of a piece of paper. And in the upper left quadrant, I put you. And in the lower left quadrant, I put them. And then in the lower right quadrant, I put history. And then in the upper right quadrant, I put work. So when we are in a work situation, and sometimes even in a personal situation, and we find people that are ruminating, that are circling that drain of I suck, they suck, why have we always sucked? I steer towards the work in a positive and moving forward kind of direction. So Darren, what can we record today? Darren, do you have any topics that we can bring? Darren, I would like us to find a common ground on our podcast that allows us to move forward. Darren, what are the things that we can do next? In this type of manner. So on the four panel, and I use this a lot when I see a conversation that's going off the rails, and I try to think how in a positive forward manner can I always steer towards the work? And if you lay out this quadrant, like I described, work is in the upper right corner. So you kind of have a hockey stick that is moving up into the right, which is where the work section is. Positive forward, back to the work.

Darren (24:49): Okay, that's an interesting approach. So you end up with these, I'm just kind of trying to wrap my head around that. So you have the work in the top right, and basically everything from the other sectors leads into that, or?

Marc (25:02): You steer the conversation towards moving the work forward.

Darren (25:07): Okay.

Marc (25:07): So my wife and I bought a farm a year ago, and there was a tremendous amount of cleanup to do in addition to general maintenance, moving things forward, like planting and dealing with soil and changing the oil on the tractor and all these types of things. But yet when I try to get help from my wife, we oftentimes are moving in different directions and having different priorities. So if I talk about why have we always been like this, why do we allow this mess to be, why is it that I can never get you onto my priorities, then I'm just setting myself up for failure. But if I move forwards towards, okay, I can help you with this, if you will help me with that, or we both need to be able to move this part forward, maybe it will help you move that part forward. Or I can't till the tractor until we move the oil, can you help me move the old oil to the recycling? Something like that. I try to just move things in a positive and forward manner.

Darren (26:04): Okay.

Marc (26:05): So that's why it's in the upper right corner because our hockey sticks always go to the upper right.

Darren (26:10): Okay. I don't think I'm Finnish enough to talk about hockey sticks, unfortunately.

Marc (26:15): Or start up math twice.

Darren (26:18): Those sound like excellent tools. I do think a fourth one we have to mention is the idea of getting help. Like you have to be comfortable talking to professionals. You have to be comfortable talking to people who can help you on these situations. And there is a huge stigma still, even though it's 2024, on having these kind of relationship with professional therapists. Lots of people think they exist purely for emergencies and that's a pretty poor view to take of them. It's actually much better to get involved in one of those situations far before the idea of an emergency. And it will help avoid that. Imagine like an iceberg. You don't want to be trying to turn to evade it at the last minute. You actually want to be adjusting your course well in advance.

Marc (27:12): Absolutely. And, you know, do keep in mind if you have ever had professional help and for one reason or another it didn't work, try someone else. Or if you try to get some help in an area and you don't really feel like you resonate with the person, try someone else, try something else. But definitely, you know, speak up if you need help. You're not alone. But on the bright side, I want to talk about just some general life mitigations that may help. And I know that these have helped me and I believe they've helped a lot of others. And I've also been taught many of these things. So I'll remind you about the talking part. Even if you must talk with color about, you know, how you feel about the things. But just talk to people about the issues that you're going through. Find safe people that you can speak with. One thing that I've practiced for years is, you know, either meditation, mindfulness, yoga. And I can also use the words flow state here because they're all kind of related. I don't have time to meditate and I don't, you know, this and that. You can have one mindful breath a day and start there. Before you brush your teeth in the morning or the night, you stop for a moment and you feel everything. You feel your hair, you feel your skin, you feel your face, you feel your neck, you feel your shoulders and your arms and your elbows and your fingertips and your abdomen all the way down to your toes. And that's something that anybody can do for one full breath a day. I'll say a quick word about meditation. You don't have to have a spiritual aspect to be able to meditate. But what you need to understand is that the breathing with your diaphragm, there's a nerve that runs down through your throat, through all your vital organs. It's called the vagus nerve. If you breathe with your diaphragm thoroughly, carefully, then it actually will reduce your heart rate and the usage. It will slow down your internal organs.

Darren (29:07): And I think there's something to be said here. You've mentioned yoga and it should also be said that it is valid for, in my opinion, any kind of exercise, just movement. Taking a half hour walk will give you these kinds of benefits because it comes back to cortisol. And exercise will help you reduce cortisol. It can, you know, improve your quality of sleep, reduce your stress. These are the things you need to do. So yoga might not be for everyone. I mean, I'm not sure it's for me, but take a brisk walk. This will give you those benefits. So maybe we're talking a bit about this when we're saying this sort of flow state, but basically getting yourself out of the seat and moving, it's like such a vital thing that a lot of us miss out on.

Marc (29:52): It's kind of the idea of conscious and active relaxation of your thinking, right? Anything that brings you to a flow state. Sometimes it's for bicycle riding. It might be doing some types of sports. One of my favorites is creative expression. If you write, if you draw, if you play an instrument of any kind, trying poetry, but something that allows you to express something that is uniquely yours. If there's any type of creative expression of any type that you've ever been attracted to in the past, you know, think of art school when you were a kid or music class or whatever. Those things also I find can help quite a lot. And I think one of yours is actually math. Isn't it, Darren?

Darren (30:34): Yeah. So, I mean, there is a note I want to add on creative expression that learn from the internet when doing creative expression, but don't compare yourself to it.

Marc (30:44): Oh, yeah.

Darren (30:45): There is this kind of mentality of people looking at what other people are producing that they've been doing for years and getting discouraged and killing creative processes, which is terrible. But yeah, one of mine is math because it comes back to the way the brain has been built. The cortisol reactions, the fight or flight are in an older part of our brain than logic. And if you can force your brain to follow logical paths, you can actually control a lot of your stress response. So doing math, math that's too complicated for you to do in your head, and not something you've memorized, but if you just start running through math problems, you can actually control your emotions reasonably well.

Marc (31:30): Fantastic. A couple of other things. I'll mention sleep. This can be a huge problem for a lot of people. I know some friends that suffer horribly from insomnia, but try different things if possible. If you need earplugs, if you need to perhaps, you know, occasionally sleep away from your partner in order to see if it works, you know, having the same routine, having the same cycles so that the melatonin and the natural body rhythms can work. But if you're not sleeping enough and you're feeling stress, then you're not in a good situation and you should really try to see at all means possible, maybe with the exception of sleeping pills themselves, but do what you can to try to make sure that you get enough sleep so that your body has a chance to repair itself. A few other things. One quick thing on stressed organizations is clear goals is a really important thing and we can use these for ourselves as well as long as they don't contribute stress. One of the things that I've said for many years is that the roadmap sells the current state and the future helps us to understand that if there is a future that is laid out for us, it helps us to work within the environment that we are in. So for many of us, this may be personal goals. It can also be organizational goals, the way that work is structured and things like this. But I think the biggest thing to understand is that if you are in a stress condition, know what the signs are, be able to also see it in others so that you can understand how to be a good listener and also, you know, do everything possible to try to take care.

Darren (33:07): Yeah, and I think there's something to be said for maintaining professional boundaries. So you earn plus time, you have vacations, you are obliged to work the hours stipulated by your contract. So it's important to understand that there is a line between life and between work and make sure you keep on top of your plus time. Don't do what I do and have it accrue for several years. These are the kind of things that will cause problematic buildup of cortisol. They'll cause the stressful situation. So just make sure you respect your own time and respect yourself and the professional boundaries.

Marc (33:48): All right. Should we do a quick summary?

Darren (33:50): I think so. So how do you know when you're feeling stressed?

Marc (33:54): I have a short temper, I'm irritable, lack of focus. I have issues sleeping and oftentimes, you know, I'm arguing about something or getting upset about something that clearly doesn't really matter.

Darren (34:07): And what would you say about identifying stress types? Can you give us some quick advice on that?

Marc (34:14): Keep in mind that there's not only personal stress. Learn to recognize it in others. They may have different symptoms than you, but also teams can become stressed. Organizations can become stressed. You can be in the presence of a stressed individual or some people may be triggered by different things and can instantly go to a fight or flight stress condition.

Darren (34:38): And then what would you say about sources of stress?

Marc (34:40): Sources of stress. The lack of control one is one of the most critical for me. We feel it oftentimes. Also, we have imposter syndrome, you know, questioning our ability to do this. Deadlines, social pressure, the need to feel like you are keeping up with everything when in fact, sometimes you deserve to take a break.

Darren (35:02): And then I think critically, what should we be doing about it?

Marc (35:05): On the general mitigation part, find ways into flow state, find ways to have active relaxation, not just sleep, take good care of your sleep, find ways to be creative, have creative expression that may also bring you into a flow state.

Darren (35:22): And maybe the last one we can say is just discussion. Make sure if you're going through these things, you're not going through them quietly and you're not going through them alone.

Marc (35:31): Excellent. Thank you, Darren. I felt really good talking about stress with you today.

Darren (35:38): I think it's good when we can tackle these personal topics from time to time, not just talk about the tech.

Marc (35:44): All right. Thank you, everyone, for listening in the DevOps Sauna this week. This is Marc. And that is...

Darren (35:51): Darren. And thank you for joining us.

Marc (35:52): Yeah. And thank you for joining us. Goodbye. We'll now tell you a little bit about who we are. Hi, I'm Marc Dillon, lead consultant at Eficode in the advisory and coaching team. And I specialize in enterprise transformations.

Darren (36:09): Hey, I'm Darren Richardson, security architect at Eficode. And I work to ensure the security of our managed services offerings.

Marc (36:16): If you like what you hear, please like, rate and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. It means the world to us.